Odd old Italian frame ('50s Vitali)

[Jesper]

I recently bought this and am waiting for delivery. Not much to show from photos so hopefully I can find some markings on it when in hand. Are dimples on the BB shell familiar to anyone (possible maker's mark)?
Seller claimed it to be an early 50s Vitali aside from the decals. Bike has obviously been repainted and modernized with braze-ons for shift levers and cable guides. I don't know if the rear drop-outs are original, but if they are the hole for the derailleur at least dates it from 50s to 60s.
The fluted fork is something I have not seen in this manner. I am hoping that it is specific to the builder/marque.
I am not sure why, but I only paid €100 for it (usually about 150-200 euros depending on marque in worse condition, but original). Possibly due to repaint (quality job) and braze-ons taking away from its originality.

 

[many408]

I don't think that dropout hole is original; all the Campagnolo and Zeus dropouts that I've seen which had or were intended to have such a hole (use to fix the spring of an upper pivot) had an extra raised bit of the boss that the main fixing screw goes into. That's not either one, looks more like a Vitus or Huret bit - but that hole...

 

[Jesper]

I don't think that dropout hole is original; all the Campagnolo and Zeus dropouts that I've seen which had or were intended to have such a hole (use to fix the spring of an upper pivot) had an extra raised bit of the boss that the main fixing screw goes into. That's not either one, looks more like a Vitus or Huret bit - but that hole...

Is it possible that the "spring" hole was drilled as a modification to fit the Campy RD? I have no idea as to the seat stay hole; just taking it in stride.

 

[ccdc.1]

Interesting. Never seen such a fork. It is distinctive enough that someone out there ought to be able to ID it…if not on this forum, maybe in one geared towards Italian bikes from the 1950s. Would guess the rear dropouts were replaced when the braze-ons were added, as the front dropouts are non-Campy and the rears look like short versions introduced in the 1970s. Regardless, looks like you scored an early generation chrome Campy bottom bracket, and possibly an early GS headset, either of which on their own would be worth the price paid.

Oh, and the hole looks exactly what I had to do to mount a “frankenderailleur” Campy Record with the sprung Campy Sport top knuckle….on a similar short Campy dropout.

 

[Jesper]

Unfortunately, I have not been unable to find many early examples of Vitali frames pre-1970. I saw a 1949 example, but not the same frame. Not sure when he passed (circa 2014 at around 90 yrs old?), but I did see a frame he built with Columbus "Gara" tubing so I know he was still building in the 90s fairly late in life just like Pelizzoli who was (is?) building all of his company's steel frames into the 2010s. Also, not familiar with Paolo Vitali; was he the son or nephew of Diego?

 

[Jesper]

I don't think that dropout hole is original; all the Campagnolo and Zeus dropouts that I've seen which had or were intended to have such a hole (use to fix the spring of an upper pivot) had an extra raised bit of the boss that the main fixing screw goes into. That's not either one, looks more like a Vitus or Huret bit - but that hole...

I assume you are referring to these style d-o's?

Like this example:

(photo credit: velobase user Richard Bryne)

or this one w/o the hole:

(photo credit: velobase)

 

[Schwinny]

Usually, I consider lightweights/ diamond frame bikes as echos of one another. Just refinements and configurations of the same basic style.
But this frame and fork are at the top of this form.
Very nice.

 

[Jesper]

Usually, I consider lightweights/ diamond frame bikes as echos of one another. Just refinements and configurations of the same basic style.
But this frame and fork are at the top of this form.
Very nice.

Why I was surprised at the price even with the mods.
I still have yet to find another fluted fork of that design, nor the significance of the BB marking.

Interesting. Never seen such a fork. It is distinctive enough that someone out there ought to be able to ID it…if not on this forum, maybe in one geared towards Italian bikes from the 1950s. Would guess the rear dropouts were replaced when the braze-ons were added, as the front dropouts are non-Campy and the rears look like short versions introduced in the 1970s. Regardless, looks like you scored an early generation chrome Campy bottom bracket, and possibly an early GS headset, either of which on their own would be worth the price paid.

Oh, and the hole looks exactly what I had to do to mount a “frankenderailleur” Campy Record with the sprung Campy Sport top knuckle….on a similar short Campy dropout.

The headset is a Rino so not original, the BB assy is an early Campy still I doubt that it is original; both items I got to inspect removed from the frame and are in great condition.

Usually, I consider lightweights/ diamond frame bikes as echos of one another. Just refinements and configurations of the same basic style.
But this frame and fork are at the top of this form.
Very nice.

Why I was surprised at the price even with the mods. and the included components. I would have paid the same for the frame bare of parts.


I still have yet to find another fluted fork of that design, nor the significance of the BB marking. The Italian forum I go to seems more focused on newer bikes so I often do not get much info other than complimentary comments. Nothing found on Velo Retro Course or Tonton. My last resort is usually the UK sites.
I am not a member at Bikeforums, but I found nothing specific related on a recent quick search there before I purchased the frame. I have come up with the names of a couple later "Vitali" builders (and/or racers?) of Paolo and Alberto, but no clue as to their connection, if any, to Diego Vitali. I am aware that Diego did not build many bikes over a decades long career (40s-90s?) of doing so. There is a comment that he only built 3000 frames during the course of his career, but I think that it might be specifically in reference to his building of racing frames although there is no clarification to determine if that is what the number specifically relates to. The only bits of knowledge I have gleaned is that he started building sometime in the 40s (presumably post WW2), and started building team frames circa 1968.

 

[Jesper]

@juvela any idea as to that BB shell make? I know I have nothing like it, nor do I recall seeing it before. It should have rang a bell being rather distinctive with the decorative cut.

I should have this frame in hand in a couple weeks; seller is trying to find some other parts that may have come with it.

I still might try to build as a period bike and not utilize the braze-ons, excepting the shifter bosses.

 

[juvela]

@juvela any idea as to that BB shell make? I know I have nothing like it, nor do I recall seeing it before. It should have rang a bell being rather distinctive with the decorative cut.

I should have this frame in hand in a couple weeks; seller is trying to find some other parts that may have come with it.

I still might try to build as a period bike and not utilize the braze-ons, excepting the shifter bosses.

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shell -

have no recollection of seeing pattern previously

the two possibilites which glided in were:

a) Malaguti

b) handcut from a blank by someone at the frame maker

blank shells and lugs long available for those wishing to cut their own

shell probably early enough that there is a chance it coud be a seventy-four

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lugs -

wondered if head lugs might be something from Malaguti (speculation)

seat lug nearly a match for the stock Agrati pattern "AM"

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blades -

recall a few threads at BF discussing frames of this era which were constructed using grooved/ribbed blades

if blade maker name mentioned unable to recollect it

attempted to employ the forum's on site advanced search function but it is down

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due to all the reworking performed since manufacture will opt out of any discussion regarding possible original configuration


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in case any readers are curious here is a tiny bit of Malaguti information:

first examples of two patterns of lugs

the black and white image is from 1949

workshop, 1930's -

team -

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